Hard Starting After Day Of Being Anchored

It'd be great to get input on my recent starting problem.  Recently when I start my engine after being anchored for 3+ hours- radio, fridge, all being used. It cranks but doesn't turn over.  I have to put it in Nuetral and give it a lot of throttle to get it started.  Brand new batteries and charged, this was my first corrective measure.

It seems like the fuel pump isn't working, feels like there's not enough battery to power the fuel pump but starter sounds healthy and cranks, just doesn't turn over- hence giving it throttle.  Next guess is ACI sensor?

Starts fine when leaving the dock after disconnecting shore power, starts without throttle after it runs a bit when out on anchor- say I drive for 10 mins and turn it off and start it again.  I am trying to tie the problem to the battery being low, strong starter spin, and lack of fuel.  Any thoughts here would be great, I am going to dig into it further tonight!
«1

Comments

  • skennellyskennelly ChicagoPosts: 623Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 2016
    Out of curiosity what position is your battery switch on when you are trying to start up and have difficulty?  I recently had issue's with my batteries and turned out I was not really using my battery switch correctly and draining both batteries while at anchor.

    The fact that you don't issues leaving the dock or after short runs leads me to believe it's something with the batteries being depleted. 
    2002 - 270FV Mag 350 B3
  • Black_DiamondBlack_Diamond Holland, MichiganPosts: 4,007Member ✭✭✭✭✭
    If you have EFI engines and the voltage drops too low, you can still get a crank but the electronics can shut down for the EFI.  At least it can on a car.  Sounds like drained batteries.

    2003 342FV "Black Diamond", 350 MAG MPI, 20P 4x4 Props, PC BYC, Holland, MI
  • aero3113aero3113 Long Island, NYPosts: 1,405Member ✭✭✭✭
    Next time you go out bring a volt meter with you. Check the batteries when you leave the dock then again when your anchored for a while.
  • FlyingBlind310FlyingBlind310 Posts: 44Member ✭✭
    I had a similar issue with my port engine last summer...would cold start fine at the dock and also within 5/10 mins of turning off. It was when we anchored for 3-5 hours that I would need to give it full throttle to fire up.

    I had the injectors and IAC motor replaced with no luck....was only when the engine started drinking coolant that the mechanic pulled the plugs and eventually discovered I had cracked cylinder heads (both banks). I hope that is not the case for you but I would pull the plugs to see if they tell a story. 

    2001 310 Fiesta Vee

    T-5.0 FWC Mercs w/ B2

  • 06Rinker27006Rinker270 Washington, DCPosts: 1,076Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 2016
    @skennelly might be spot on.  If battery switch is on both batteries then might be depleting both.  Or your trying to start from a depleted house battery.  I had a similar issue.  Starting battery when firing up and house battery when at anchor.  

    I use one of these to make sure I dont drop too low.


    Patrick
    06 Rinker 270
  • NavyCTRCNavyCTRC Pensacola, FLPosts: 303Member ✭✭✭
    What do you guys consider too low on house batteries?  I think my stereo/amp and refrigerator (usually the only things running at anchor) will keep running all the way down to 11v or maybe less.  I typically do not let it get that low since it takes so long to get charged back up, but how low is too low?
  • rinker270nbrinker270nb Posts: 90Member ✭✭
    Switch was in position 1 the entire time.  It wouldn't start in position 1.  When I started it, had it in position Both.  Mechanic thinks it needs a tune up as it hasn't had one this year, its a new 383 stroker w EFI, installed June 2015, barely broken in.  I think the volts were under 11.  Tell me the correct battery switch assignments as I am installing a second house battery.  Thanks, headed to boat now.
  • Dream_InnDream_Inn Annapolis, MDPosts: 3,845Member, Moderator mod
    12.5V I believe is at 50%.  I try to keep mine above that, but sometimes it gets down to maybe 12.2V.  If you are going at all below 12 then it kills your battery.  I posted a link in the library that is very detailed about battery use (can't remember the link off-hand).

    Dream 'Inn III -- 2008 400 Express

  • jmichelsjmichels CTPosts: 265Member ✭✭
    check the alternator terminal when running. See aht its over 14.2 volts running. IF all good shut it down, then have someone hold a meter on battery that is selected when you crank the motor to start. If it drops below 9 volts while cranking battery is no good. Lastly if all that checks out good make sure your water pump is working good and didnt suck up too much sand while anchored. 
  • rinker270nbrinker270nb Posts: 90Member ✭✭
    Batteries were 12.8, 13.67 w charger on.  It started on the first try without throttle, was still hooked up to shore power, 1 hr without shore power it wouldn't start and I didn't use the throttle.  Batteries were at 12.6.  sorry, I didn't get a reading when turning the key.  

    I had a new impeller installed in May, I am anchored in 20 ft of water in Chicago Playpen. Will look to see how pump is acting.  

    It's getting a tune up Wed.  It wants to start but seems like it's starving fuel, hence the needed throttle to start. My top guesses are tune up, bad voltage at fuel pump, something w fuel to EFI,eg fuel filter, computer, etc.  

    Thanks for the help, let me know if anything comes to mind.  I feel it should start without the throttle being used, turnkey.  
  • 06Rinker27006Rinker270 Washington, DCPosts: 1,076Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 2016
    @rinker270nb it depends on how you are wired.   The house battery has all the extra terminals hooked up to.  Starting battery has wire to starter.  The way I figured which battery belong to what number switch was I unhooked my starting battery.  Flipped my switches between 1 and 2 to figure out which battery switch number was live.  Lights in cabin turned on only with switch 1 so I knew my house battery was wired to switch 1.  Unhooked the house, connected starting battery, same thing just to verify.  Starting was number 2.  

    Your switch 1 may be your starting and drained it too much with all that running while at anchor.

    Could be wrong, still fairly new.  But once I figured this out I stopped having issues on the hook.  Good luck.
    Patrick
    06 Rinker 270
  • rinker270nbrinker270nb Posts: 90Member ✭✭
    Thx 06, I will check this again but I verified this a while ago and wrote #1 and #2 on my positive batt cables.  
  • skennellyskennelly ChicagoPosts: 623Member ✭✭✭
    @rinker270nb just saw your comment about the play pen.  I'm out there quit frequently...always see a few 270's out there.
    2002 - 270FV Mag 350 B3
  • rinker270nbrinker270nb Posts: 90Member ✭✭
    Update, I spoke to Mercruiser technical support and their go to trouble spots recommendations are
    - IAC
    - Fuel pressure at rail, slow or dying pump
    - Vacuum draw at anti-syphon
  • 06Rinker27006Rinker270 Washington, DCPosts: 1,076Member ✭✭✭
    which one of those would explain being able to start after being hooked up to shore power and not once on the hook?
    Patrick
    06 Rinker 270
  • 212rowboat212rowboat Posts: 1,994Member ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2016
    Switch was in position 1 the entire time.  It wouldn't start in position 1.  When I started it, had it in position Both.  Mechanic thinks it needs a tune up as it hasn't had one this year, its a new 383 stroker w EFI, installed June 2015, barely broken in.  I think the volts were under 11.  Tell me the correct battery switch assignments as I am installing a second house battery.  Thanks, headed to boat now.
    who did your ECM/PCM programming? 

    other than battery, which should NEVER drop to under 11... or even under 12 so far as I see it on a resting battery, your issue may be centric to timing, which could be indicative of a timing chain slopping up during break in (the nylon bushings between the links intended to quieten the thing wear quickly and create a mm or two of extension with all the links on the taught side of the chain between the top of the cam and the right side of the crank combined).... 

    a engine that has been re-tar-ded (silly forum filter) will turn quickly but take longer to fire- and engine advanced is harder to turn, but fires very quickly.  your sensors work against you in some circumstances... the manifold absolute pressure (map) sensor tells the pcm it's okay to advance... the idle air control (IAC) plunger thinks it needs air (creating leaner condition), and the air intake temperature (AIT) thinks it has cooler more controllable air now that the engine room has cooled off (external the engine, which is still warmer than it would be at true cold start), which all point to advancing the ignition......... and making it harder for the starter to turn it.....

    so.... do me a favor.... next time the engine does this, or next time you suspect the engine will do this, turn the key on and wait about ten seconds before you throw it over to start.... let the computer collect variables anew, as opposed to the conditions it was in the seconds prior to you last killing it... I wager your problem (if not batter, @ 11vdc it's def your battery) will go away... which makes this post primarily for the benefit of others reading it, I guess. 
  • rinker270nbrinker270nb Posts: 90Member ✭✭
    It's started on the hook but needed the throttle, ultimately that's the problem I am trying to solve- not providing throttle to start the engine, e.g. turnkey.  If it failed on the hook, I would need to be towed in and that hasn't happened...yet.

    It's been progressively getting harder to start, tells me something is failing. The engine is under warranty, I will replace the IAC, check the fuel pressure, and then vacuum draw.  Correcting two of the three items won't cost me, I just have to get a Merc certified mechanic to my boat!
  • 212rowboat212rowboat Posts: 1,994Member ✭✭✭✭✭
    if your battery is good and you are certain about that, I wager heavy that you're advancing timing as explained above.  do as I asked and see what happens... turn the key- count to ten or even thirty, then throw it over to start... let the variables stored in temp files refresh with new variables.. 
  • rinker270nbrinker270nb Posts: 90Member ✭✭
    Wow, thanks for the intel 212rowboat.  The programming was done when the engine was installed, Merc shop.  This is great insight along with an actionable solution.  6/16 is when this started to really become a problem, here's my string on pre-start exercises.  My previous engine was a quick key turn and run, I am finally seeing this isn't the same...here's my question about pre start and fuel to EFI.  You're saying there's more happening than just getting fuel to the engine.  Thanks!

    http://rinkerboats.vanillaforums.com/discussion/5484/pre-start-fuel-pump-process#latest
  • 212rowboat212rowboat Posts: 1,994Member ✭✭✭✭✭
    Wow, thanks for the intel 212rowboat.  The programming was done when the engine was installed, Merc shop.  This is great insight along with an actionable solution.  6/16 is when this started to really become a problem, here's my string on pre-start exercises.  My previous engine was a quick key turn and run, I am finally seeing this isn't the same...here's my question about pre start and fuel to EFI.  You're saying there's more happening than just getting fuel to the engine.  Thanks!

    http://rinkerboats.vanillaforums.com/discussion/5484/pre-start-fuel-pump-process#latest
    EFI engines are monitored heavily to maintain proper fuel trim and spark advance... this is why they produce more power, are easier on fuel, and will outlast a non-monitored engine by a large margin.  

    when you turn the key, a built in test (BIT) happens in about half a second, and those critical sensors are monitored for health, primarily, but also for parameter.  the big sensors are MAP/MAF, CPS, CKPS, temperature, TPS, and IAC... the IAC is dependent on temperature relative to TPS, as is spark due to MAP/MAF-TPS-IAC-AIT... they all play along and represent variables on the computer sorta like an algebra equation- if can't be solved as reconciled against b, f, and h, the PCM/ECM/u has a choice:  either it takes a swag at what it doesn't know, or, it doesn't start... it can run with one missing so long as the others are dead nuts accurate.  

    the problem with an engine that is holding temporary variables in it's memory, and then the key-on BIT reports back, (example) a temperature hotter than expected (say 160* as opposed to ambient 90*), and the other sensors aren't being polled yet (engine isn't operational)- there you have it... it is going to trim fuel and spark for a warmer engine, advancing timing off base, and making the engine harder to turn- acting precisely like a low battery.  

    fuel pressure should never be a variable.. it should be etched in stone... say, 43.5psi, which is the emerging industry standard for rating flow of automotive injectors, is the PRESSURE- and is the same from idle to redline.... the VOLUME at that pressure is decided upon RPM/TPS reconciled against the temperature and MAP/MAF and is what the PCM regulates in expressions of Short Term Fuel Trims and Long Term Fuel Trims, which do exactly like they sound like- and control duty cycle (how long injector is open) of the injector which regulates the VOLUME of fuel per cycle so long as the PRESSURE is well maintained no matter what the demand is... IF- if that PCM is holding information it thinks is still accurate, or if it sniffs the temperature (which it does) and compares them to other variable common at that temperature and applies them (advancing timing), it can be the cause of your hard start. 

    the wiggle in your timing chain can also be causing the advance, and due to break in... the PCM would not know this until it compares positioning of the CPS and CKPS... 

    either way, all of what we're discussing is controlled via PCM with the exception of fuel pressure... it doesn't even monitor fuel pressure... it's just expected to be accurate and maintained... so... the solution is to turn key, wait a bit for fuel to come to pressure (happens fast) as well as short term environmental variables to be dumped, and then turn to start... 
  • rinker270nbrinker270nb Posts: 90Member ✭✭
    Pretty cool!  If I pull the battery cables, can I reset the computer?  It'd be great to get a fresh baseline and new data into the cpu.  
  • 212rowboat212rowboat Posts: 1,994Member ✭✭✭✭✭
    You can pull the cables or turn the battery switch to off, but that's overkill. Just turn the key and wait a few. 
  • youstolemybeeryoustolemybeer St Charles Mo. Eagles LandingPosts: 244Member ✭✭✭
    Not to over load ya butttt, The battery switch can also cause the goofy start, I bought a replacement switch last year only to throw it away. The contacts in the switch were not big enough for starting the boat. Yes it would start, eventually. Took the switch out of the wiring and have a dedicated battery for starting now. the starting now is just like in a car. TURN KEY GO, not to brag but the carbed 454 in my boat is easier than starting my wifes efi mitsubishi
  • rinker270nbrinker270nb Posts: 90Member ✭✭
    Tune up solved it.  I learned a lot about my new engine, thx all! 
  • youstolemybeeryoustolemybeer St Charles Mo. Eagles LandingPosts: 244Member ✭✭✭
    Not my monkey, not my circus... BUTTTT if that engine is fresh from 2015 and it is requiring a tune up already, I would be looking into Why it needs a tuneup so soon. How did the plugs look? How did the distributor cap look? Did you do a compression test?
  • rinker270nbrinker270nb Posts: 90Member ✭✭
    All looked corroded.  What is the frequency for tune-ups?  Granted, Chicago has high humidity and 6 months of storage a year.  I am finding a lot of boats in Lake Michigan have annual tune ups.
  • duane.mosleyduane.mosley florence kyPosts: 315Member ✭✭✭
    not trying to hijack the post, but i am having the same issue. 06' 250ec with 5.7 volvo. starts great on cold start but have to work the throttle to start after anchored for an hour or so. i push the throttle to full open position, as i'm turning the key to start, i pull back the throttle to neutral and it fires right up. i have: drained old gas and started with fresh non-ethanol gas, fresh tune up, added a second blower to bring in more fresh air(to help dissipate heat), cleaned air intake at throttle body. seems like the computer is dumping too much fuel and the open throttle allows the amount of air needed to compensate. i'm no marine mechanic, but that's what it seems like to me

  • 212rowboat212rowboat Posts: 1,994Member ✭✭✭✭✭
    not trying to hijack the post, but i am having the same issue. 06' 250ec with 5.7 volvo. starts great on cold start but have to work the throttle to start after anchored for an hour or so. i push the throttle to full open position, as i'm turning the key to start, i pull back the throttle to neutral and it fires right up. i have: drained old gas and started with fresh non-ethanol gas, fresh tune up, added a second blower to bring in more fresh air(to help dissipate heat), cleaned air intake at throttle body. seems like the computer is dumping too much fuel and the open throttle allows the amount of air needed to compensate. i'm no marine mechanic, but that's what it seems like to me

    it could be that very thing, but more related to a gummed up idle air control passage, which is the bane of marine engines life as they are programmed to run richer than the same engine in front of a car... this is where i'd start in your case.  

    it could also be the ignition timing has walked a bit.... which is also common... an advanced engine will BAM fire right up, though it's harder for the starter to turn, where as an engine re-tar-ded some will turn easier, but is harder to catch that spark and run... 
  • duane.mosleyduane.mosley florence kyPosts: 315Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 2016
    i was under the impression that with MPI, the ECM controlled timing?

  • 212rowboat212rowboat Posts: 1,994Member ✭✭✭✭✭
    it is controlled by the PCM, so long as the information the PCM is receiving is good.. 

    if your timing chain has worn and is stretching more now between the top of the cam and the bottom of the crank sprockets (taught side) that accounts for a few degrees the PCM doesn't know about... if the rotor button is worn or the dizzy tower points are worn, that allows spark to strike less precisely- also accounting for loss of precision spark timing.. 

    but your issue seems to be centric to fueling when starting- which, I mentioned in passing could be ignition timing, but, not as likely as the IAC- which is also involving the PCM.... the PCM believes the IAC to be in a position open enough to fire the engine, and which it likely would be if there weren't obstructions blocking the flow of air.. so... a can of throttle body cleaner and a clean IAC will likely remedy your situation. 
«1
Sign In or Register to comment.